Jump to content



  • 0
Guest Aldar

Чингис-хан и Чингизиды: старкластер и гаплогруппа С3

Question

Recommended Posts

  • 0

enhd

Татарин или монгол - маловероятно , но общие предки это 100%!

asan-kaygy

Получил , но еще пока не разбирался , там все по англицки. На выходных займусь. Если , что будет не ясно , буду задавать вам вопросы , не обессутьте! :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

It seems Haplotype C3c-M48&M86 has a neolithic original backgroup, collection for ethnic groups marked by C3c.

Mongolian (Wells et al. 2001):

1/24 = 4% D-M174

3/24 = 12.5% C-M130(xC3c-M48)

11/24 = 46% C3c-M48

2/24 = 8% F-M89(xI-M170, J2-M172, H1-M52, K-M9)

3/24 = 12.5% K-M9(xO-M175, L-M20, N1c-M46, P-M45)

2/24 = 8% O3-M122

1/24 = 4% O1a-M119

1/24 = 4% R1a1-M17(xM87)

Inner Mongolian (Xue et al. 2006):

2/45 = 4.4% Y*(xA, C, DE, J, K)

17/45 = 37.8% C3-M217(xC3c-M48)

4/45 = 8.9% C3c-M48

2/45 = 4.4% K-M9(xNO-M214, P-92R7)

6/45 = 13.3% N1c1-M178

1/45 = 2.2% O2*-P31(xO2a-M95, O2b-SRY+465)

3/45 = 6.7% O3*-M122

2/45 = 4.4% O3-M122+LY1(xM159, M7)

3/45 = 6.7% O3a3c-M134(xO3a3c1-M117)

5/45 = 11.1% O3a3c1-M117

Outer Mongolian (Xue et al. 2006):

2/65 = 3.1% Y*(xA, C, DE, J, K)

22/65 = 33.8% C3-M217(xC3c-M48)

13/65 = 20.0% C3c-M48

1/65 = 1.5% DE-YAP(xE-SRY4064)

2/65 = 3.1% J-12f2

1/65 = 1.5% K-M9(xNO-M214, P-92R7)

2/65 = 3.1% N1b-P43

1/65 = 1.5% N1c*-Tat(xN1c1-M178)

4/65 = 6.2% N1c1-M178

1/65 = 1.5% O2*-P31(xO2a-M95, O2b-SRY+465)

2/65 = 3.1% O3*-M122

1/65 = 1.5% O3-M122+LY1(xM159, M7)

1/65 = 1.5% O3a3c-M134(xO3a3c1-M117)

3/65 = 4.6% O3a3c1-M117

3/65 = 4.6% P-92R7(xR1a-SRY10831.2)

6/65 = 9.2% R1a-SRY10831.2

Mongolia (Hammer et al. 2005):

51/149 = 34.2% C3-M217(xC3c-M86)

27/149 = 18.1% C3c-M86

2/149 = 1.3% D1-M15

2/149 = 1.3% D3a-P47

1/149 = 0.7% G-M201

1/149 = 0.7% H-M69

4/149 = 2.7% J-12f2

1/149 = 0.7% NO-M214(xN1-LLY22g, O-M175)

9/149 = 6.0% N1b-P43

3/149 = 2.0% N1c1-M178

1/149 = 0.7% O-M175(xO1a-M119, O2-P31, O3-M122)

4/149 = 2.7% O3-M122(xO3a3c-M134, O3/-LINE1)

24/149 = 16.1% O3a3c-M134

6/149 = 4.0% O3/-LINE1

1/149 = 0.7% O1a-M119(xO1a2-M110)

2/149 = 1.3% O2*-P31(xO2a-M95, O2b-SRY465)

4/149 = 2.7% Q1-P36

6/149 = 4.0% R-M207

Kalmykians (Nasidze et al. 2005):

1/99 = 1% DE-YAP

24/99 = 24% C-RPS4Y(xC3c-M48)

37/99 = 37% C3c-M48

13/99 = 13% K-M9(xN1c-M46, P-M45)

1/99 = 1% N1c-M46

6/99 = 6% R2-M124

11/99 = 11% P-M45(xR1-M173, R2-M124)

5/99 = 5% F-M89(xG-M201, J2-M172, I-M170, K-M9)

1/99 = 1% G-M201

Khalkh (Katoh et al. 2004):

35/85 = 41.2% C(xC3c)

13/85 = 15.3% C3c

3/85 = 3.5% D

2/85 = 2.4% F(xJ, K)

2/85 = 2.4% J

3/85 = 3.5% K(xN1c, O, P)

4/85 = 4.7% N1c

16/85 = 18.8% O3

4/85 = 4.7% P(xR1a)

3/85 = 3.5% R1a1

Uriankhai (Katoh et al. 2004):

15/60 = 25.0% C(xC3c)

20/60 = 33.3% C3c

1/60 = 1.7% D

3/60 = 5.0% K(xN1c, O, P)

5/60 = 8.3% N1c

3/60 = 5.0% O2b

4/60 = 6.7% O3

5/60 = 8.3% P(xR1a)

4/60 = 6.7% R1a1

Zakhchin (Katoh et al. 2004):

10/60 = 16.7% C(xC3c)

18/60 = 30.0% C3c

2/60 = 3.3% D

1/60 = 1.7% F(xJ, K)

1/60 = 1.7% J

3/60 = 5.0% K(xN1c, O, P)

2/60 = 3.3% N1c

5/60 = 8.3% O(xO1, O2b, O3)

2/60 = 3.3% O2b

5/60 = 8.3% O3

3/60 = 5.0% P(xR1a)

8/60 = 13.3% R1a1

Khoton (Katoh et al. 2004):

4/40 = 10.0% C3c

2/40 = 5.0% J

1/40 = 2.5% O3

33/40 = 82.5% R1a1

Buryats (Karafet et al. 2002 via Tambets et al. 2004 and Hammer et al. 2005):

45/81 = 55.6% C3-M217(xC3c-M86)

4/81 = 4.9% C3c-M86

1/81 = 1.2% G-M201

1/81 = 1.2% J-12f2

23/81 = 28.4% N1c1

2/81 = 2.5% N1b

2/81 = 2.5% O3/-LINE1

1/81 = 1.2% R1b (or possibly R1-M173(xR1a-SRY1532))

1/81 = 1.2% R1a

1/81 = 1.2% R-M207(xR1a, R1b) (or possibly R-M207(xR1-M173))

Daur (Xue et al. 2006):

2/39 = 5.1% Y*(xA, C, DE, J, K)

11/39 = 28.2% C3-M217(xC3c-M48)

1/39 = 2.6% C3c-M48

1/39 = 2.6% NO-M214(xN1-LLY22g, O-M175)

3/39 = 7.7% N1c1-M178

1/39 = 2.6% O-M175(xO1a-M119, O2-P31, O3-M122)

2/39 = 5.1% O1a-M119

1/39 = 2.6% O2*-P31(xO2a-M95, O2b-SRY+465)

6/39 = 15.4% O2a-M95(xO2a1-M88)

1/39 = 2.6% O2b*-SRY+465(xO2b1-47z)

1/39 = 2.6% O3*-M122

6/39 = 15.4% O3-M122+LY1(xM159, M7)

3/39 = 7.7% O3a3c1-M117

Eastern Yugurs (Ruixia Zhou et al. 2008):

2/45 = 4.4% C-RPS4Y

1/45 = 2.2% DE-YAP

2/45 = 4.4% J-12f2

6/45 = 13.3% F-M89(xJ-12f2, K-M9)

7/45 = 15.6% K-M9(xN1c-Tat, O-M175, P-M45)

1/45 = 2.2% O-M175(xO1-MSY2, O3-M122)

5/45 = 11.1% O1-MSY2

14/45 = 31.1% O3-M122

1/45 = 2.2% R1a1-M17

6/45 = 13.3% P-M45(xR1a1-M17)

Bo'an (Wei Wang et al. 2003):

3% C-M130

26% R1a1-M17

slightly less than 30% O3-M122

Dongxiang (Wei Wang et al. 2003):

0% C-M130

28% R1a1-M17

24% O3-M122

West Evens(Brigitte et al & Karafet et al. 2007)

1/22 = 4.5% C3c-M86

20/22 = 90.9% N-Tat

1/22 = 4.5% N-P43

Central Evens(Brigitte et al. & Karafet et al. 2007)

1/24 = 4.2% C3-M217

12/24 = 50% C3c-M86

2/24 = 8.3% N-Tat

9/24 = 37.5% N-P43

East Evens(Brigitte et al & Karafet et al. 2007)

4/31 = 12.9% C3-M217

19/31 = 61.3% C3c-M86

4/31 = 12.9% N-Tat

4/31 = 12.9% other

Stony Tunguska Evenks(Brigitte et al & Karafet et al. 2007)

28/40 = 70% C3c-M86

1/40 = 2.5% F-M89

11/44 = 27.5% N-P43

Lengra Evenks(Brigitte et al & Karafet et al. 2007)

2/9 = 22.2% C3c-M48

4/9 = 44.44% C3c-M86

1/9 = 11.1% K-M9

2/9 = 22.2% N-Tat

Nyukzha Evenks(Brigitte et al & Karafet et al. 2007)

13/78 = 16.7% C3-M217

42/78 = 53.8% C3c-M86

1/78 = 1.3% F-M89

1/78 = 1.3% J-M172

16/78 = 20.5% N-Tat

5/78 = 6.4% other

Yakut speaking Evenks(Brigitte et al & Karafet et al. 2007)

1/33 = 3% C3-M217

4/33 = 12.1% C3c-M86

24/33 = 72.7% N-Tat

2/33 = 6.1% N-P43

2/33 = 6.1% R1a-M17

Yakuts(Brigitte et al & Karafet et al. 2007)

3/184 = 1.6% C3-M217

1/184 = 0.5% C3c-M86

1/184 = 0.5% J-M172

173/184 = 94% N-Tat

1/184 = 0.5% R-M17

1/184 = 0.5% Q-P36

4/184 = 2.2% R1a-M17

Yukaghirs(Brigitte et al & Karafet et al. 2007)

1/13 = 7.7% C3-M217

1/13 = 7.7% C3c-M48

2/13 = 15.4% C3c-M86

1/13 = 7.7% F-M89

4/13 = 30.8% N-Tat

4/13 = 30.8% Q-P36

Koryaks(Brigitte et al & Karafet et al. 2007)

4/12 = 33.3% C3-M217

4/12 = 33.3% N-Tat

1/12 = 8.3% O-M122

1/12 = 16.7% Q-P36

1/12 = 8.3% other

Tuvans(Brigitte et al & Karafet et al. 2007)

3/55 = 5.5% C3-M217

5/55 = 9.1% C3c-M86

1/55 = 1.8% N-LLY22g

5/55 = 9.1% N-Tat

15/55 = 27.3% Q-P36

1/55 = 1.8% O-M122

9/55 = 16.4% Q-P36

4/55 = 7.3% R-M173

12/55 = 21.8% R1a-M17

Tuvans(Jeffrey et al, 2001)

3/40 = 7.5% R1a-M17

6/40 = 15% P-M45

7/40 = 17.5% N-Tat

11/40 = 27.5% N-7C

1/40 = 2.5% D-YAP

4/40 = 10% C-RPS4Y-T

8/40 = 20% C3c-M48

Tofalar(Jeffrey et al, 2001)

1/19 = 5.3% R1a-M17

9/19 = 47.4% N-Tat

7/19 = 36.8% N-7C

2/19 = 10.5% C-RPS4Y-T

Buryatian(Jeffrey et al, 2001)

3/13 = 23.1% N-Tat

2/13 = 15.4% N-7C

6/13 = 46.1% O1a-M119

1/13 = 7.7% F-M89

1/13 = 7.7% C3c-M48

Yenisey Evenk(Jeffrey et al, 2001)

3/31 = 9.7% R1a-M17

3/31 = 9.7% N-Tat

6/31 = 19.3% N-7C

1/31 = 3.2% O1a-M119

18/31 = 58.1% C3c-M48

Okhotsk Evenk(Jeffrey et al, 2001)

6/16 = 37.5% N-Tat

10/16 = 62.5% C3c-M48

Ulchi/Nanai(Jeffrey et al, 2001)

2/53 = 3.8% P-M45

5/53 = 9.4% N-Tat

2/53 = 3.8% O1a-M119

8/53 = 15.1% K-M9

10/53 = 18.9% C(XC3c-M48)

19/53 = 35.8% C3c-M48

2/53 = 1.9% others of C3?

Upriver Negidal(Jeffrey et al, 2001)

10/10 = 100% C3c-M48

Downriver Negidal(Jeffrey et al, 2001)

total: 7:

60% N-Tat

20% C-RPS4Y-T

10% C3c-M48

10% others of C3?

Udegey(Jeffrey et al, 2001)

1/20 = 5% R1a-M17

2/20 = 10% P-M45

5/20 = 25% K-M9

12/20 = 60% C3c-M48

Nivkh(Jeffrey et al, 2001)

6/17 = 35.3% P-M45

1/17 = 5.9% O1a-M119

2/17 = 11.8% K-M9

2/17 = 11.8% C-RPS4Y-T

6/17 = 35.3% C3c-M48

Koryak(Jeffrey et al, 2001)

5/27 = 18.5% P-M45

6/27 = 22.2% N-Tat

7/27 = 25.9% C-RPS4Y-T

9/27 = 33.3% C3c-M48

Itel'man(Jeffrey et al, 2001)

4/18 = 22.2% R1a-M17

2/18 = 11.1% N-Tat

5/18 = 27.8% C-RPS4Y-T

7/18 = 38.9% C3c-M48

Chukchi(Jeffrey et al, 2001)

3/24 = 12.5% Q1a3a-M3

1/24 = 4.2% R1a-M17

5/24 = 20.8% P-M45

14/24 = 58.3% N-Tat

1/24 = 4.2% C3c-M48

to be continued~

Y-central_asians_M48.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

Это из блока Деникеса?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

Это из блока Деникеса?

No.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

Откуда подборка?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

Откуда подборка?

"Взял" у одного участника Енгшөбу из форума Asiafinest. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

"Взял" у одного участника Енгшөбу из форума Asiafinest. ;)

Спасибо, мне эти данные напоминают типа блога Деникеса, он тоже такие данные выкладывал.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

Спасибо, мне эти данные напоминают типа блога Деникеса, он тоже такие данные выкладывал.

Деникес казахский чингисид?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

Деникес казахский чингисид?

Нет, кажеться грек.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

Нет, кажеться грек.

To Asan-Kaygy: (I cannot write in Russian, but can understand well. Please also note that the last khans' names are not in Mongolian, but in Tibetan and/or Sanskrit. It's like having the names such as Mohammed, Meiram, and etc.)

I just wanted to tell you all that we were able to identify the proper descendants of Dayan Khan's eleventh son Гэрзэнз Жалайр Хан. As you all may know his descendants became the khans of the Khalkha ( Jalair Halk) Mongol or just Mongolia. There are many descendants of other minor princes and Chinggis Khan's brothers' descendants in Mongolia. They are called Taij people. There are two places in Mongolia that have the highest chances of having numerous Chinggissids and/or Borjigits. One is Govisumber Province and the other is CagaanChuluut region of Zavkhan Province. However, since it is time consuming and costly to test many people, here is the information about the lineage of the four major khans.

The lineage of the khans of Засагт Хан Аймаг is: Батмөнх Даян Хаан-Гэрсэнз Жалайр Хан-Ашихай Хан-Лайхур Хан-Засагт Хан Субадай-300 years-Засагт хан Содномравдан

The lineage of the khans of Сэцэн Хан Аймаг is: Батмөнх Даян Хаан-Гэрзэнз Жалайр Хан-АминТограл-МөрөнБуйма-Шолой Сэцэн Хан-14 other khans-Сэцэн хан Дэмчигдорж /1893-1910/.

The lineage of the khans of Түшээт Хан Аймаг is: Батмөнх Даян Хаан-Гэрсэнз Жалайр Хан-Онох Хан-Автай Сайн Хаан (1554-1588)-14 other khans-Түшээт хан Дашням. The person in the picture is not the khan, but Supreme General Ханддорж /1869-1915/ of the Түшээт Хан Аймаг. He is also descended from Aвтай Сайн Хаан. Handdorj_duunet.jpg

The lineage of the khans of Сайн Ноён Хан Аймаг: Батмөнх Даян Хаан-Гэрсэнз Жалайр Хан-Онох Хан-Түмэнхэн сайн ноён-300 years-Сайн Ноён хан Т.Намнансүрэн, Первый премьер-министр /1878 - 1919/ Namnansurenn.jpg

From Сэцэн Хан Аймаг: The second to the last khan did not have a child therefore his uncle's son inherited the Сэцэн Хан title, however, he was executed during the communist regime. But there is a known writer in Mongolia who is one of the survived descendants of the earlier Setcen Khans. Here is his picture:natsagdorj.jpg

From Түшээт Хан Аймаг: The last khan also did not have a child. His nephew who inherited the title had only two daughters. However, we have two group of people from this lineage. Supreme General Ханддорж's relative was the previous Minister of Transportation of Mongolia. The minister however is Supreme General Ханддорж's relative through his mother; but his mother has two brothers. The second group is Хараагийн баатар ван Наваан-Юндэн's paternal relatives who live in Selenge province and Erdenet city of Mongolia. They are also descended from Автай Сайн Хаан. Here is Navaan-Yunden's picture with his adopted daughter in 1954. The second picture belongs to the minister who is a Chingissid maternally.

hongorzulohin.jpg

tsengel_russia.jpg

From Сайн Ноён Хан Аймаг: The last khan's only son passed away before his father did, so the khan's adopted son inherited his title. However, my maternal grandfather is related to Сайн Ноён Хан Намнансүрэн through his mother. According to my grandfather, the grandchildren of his mother's brothers live in Uvurkhangai Province now. So I should be able to find them.

I have no information about the descendants of Засагт Хан. The last 4 khans of the Khalkha Mongols plus a number of Mongolian and Inner Mongolian princes all passed away mysteriously during the years of 1910-1919. Pretty much all of them did not have children or either were poisoned to death, I assume. Whoever survived were mostly executed during 1930-1940. However, since now we have the information about their relatives I will try to contact them and take their DNA samples when I visit Mongolia. I am so much excited about comparing the DNA test results of Kazakh Chingissids and Mongolian Chingissids.

Thank you for reading my long post. I sent the same message to Mr. Yerlan Turuspekov, but since he is mostly busy I am posting it here.

Edited by TengisSarana

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

I dont know why, but i cant send private messages for you^

Dear TengisSarana

I am very glad for your answer. Thank you a lot.

Can you give me your post adress, i will sent you 5 or 10 DNA-kits.

It depends on how much descendants of Genghis-khan you know.

Also we need to take DNA from distant relatives (not close)

It will be great if every testing descendant of Geghis-khan know his genealogy till Dayan-khan

Also if you know the descendants of Genghis-khan brothers we can test them too

So

1. i need your post adress to send DNA-kits (how much kits do you need, how much descendants of Genghis-khan from different lines do you know (Zasagt, Secen, Sayn-noyon, Tushetu, Chahar etc))

2. And every testing descendant should know his genealogy as far as he can

3. It is better if you give me your e-mail

best regards, asan-kaygy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

You can answer me at my e-mail

babasan@yandex.ru

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

Асан—Кайгы

У казахов С3 даже побольше, чем у халхов, а больше всего у эвенков- тунгусов, и как это можно понять? Спасибо.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

Не нужно все С3 смешивать в кучу, Есть С3с, которых у казахов маловато, есть у калмыков, маньчжуров много. Есть C3d у бурятов много и есть предположение что у казахских коныратов тоже будет.

Есть С3-starcluster его много и у монгол, и у казахов и хазарейцев, есть гаплотип казахских алшин, он есть только у нас.

В общем надо всегда смотреть субклад.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

Асан—Кайгы

У казахов С3 даже побольше, чем у халхов, а больше всего у эвенков- тунгусов, и как это можно понять? Спасибо.

Нужно различать С3 и С3с.У халха С3 побольше чем у казахов,а С3с у казахов побольше\намного\ чем у халха.

* C3* Typical of Mongolians, Buryats, Daurs, Kalmyks, Hazaras, Manchus, Sibes, Oroqens, Koryaks, and Itelmens; with a moderate distribution among other Tungusic peoples, Koreans, Ainus, Nivkhs, Altaians, Tuvinians, and Uzbeks[2][5][7][9][13][15][23]

* C3c (M48, M77, M86) Typical of Northern Tungusic peoples, Kazakhs, Oirats, Kalmyks, Outer Mongolians, Yukaghirs, Nivkhs, Koryaks, Itelmens, and Udegeys, with a moderate distribution among other Southern Tungusic peoples, Inner Mongolians, Buryats, Tuvinians, Yakuts, Chukchi, Kyrgyz, Uyghurs, Uzbeks, Karakalpaks, and Tajiks[10][15][25]

Если говорить о тюркском происхождении Халха-монголов\казахи говорят,что Халха-монголы есть тюрки или халхи произошли от көктюрков\,то по генетически деиствительно Халхи ближе к көктюркам получается,а казахи и калмыки нет. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

Аза, вы что в танке или когнитивная сетка не позволяет улавливать новую информацию? Я уже устал повторять.

По тем данным 2001-02 годов говорить о распространении С3с у казахов так массово нет смысла. По новым данным С3с у казахов очень мало.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

Это самые известные работы по распределению гаплогрупп среди халха-монголов

Wells 2001

С3с – 46 % (11/24)

С3 – 13 % (3/24)

О3 – 8 % (2/24)

Xue 2006

C3c – 20 % (13/65)

C3 – 34 % (22/65)

O3 – 11% (7/65)

Katoh 2006

C3c – 15 % (13/85)

C* (xC3c) – 41 % (35/85)

O3 – 19% (16/85)

Если бы мы судили по данным Уэллса, как это делает Аза, то увидели бы ту старую искаженную картину, которую нам демонстрируют из Википедии.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

Тот же регион откуда Карафет брала свои выборки по казахам.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

Асан-Кайгы, проясните пожалуйста, к какому субкладу относится мой С3? В сети встречал статьи про С3 у кыргызов ичкиликов, Вам что-нибудь известно по гаплотипам кыргызов?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

После ваших результатов вышла хорошая статья по С3, хотя по киргизам данных мало, точнее даже нет, есть только по киргизским R1a, напомните ваш гаплотип.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

Мои данные таковы:

rust.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

Постараюсь на выходных поработать с той статьей и вашими данными.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 0

Разместил статью здесь:

http://www.rodstvo.ru/forum/index.php?showtopic=1148

Вот это труд.

"Натсаг Дорджи - писатель, поэт, сценарист. Основатель современной монгольской литературы. Родился в Туве в благородной, но бедной семье." На самом деле Нацагдорж родился близ Багануур в местечке Гүн Галуутай. Багануур находится в 130 км-х от Улаанбаатара.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...